water jacket problem

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  • #410477

    Install a filter in the upper radiator hose so that any residual rust and scale does not get into the radiator.

    #410479

    Jack,

    When you are ready to button it up, use NAPA KOOL or Penn Cool as coolants in your radiator, as they have a rust inhibitor.

    Do that and that will be the end of your corrosion problems.

    Peter

    #410480

    You mix them with Distilled Water.

    #410482

    GANO inline coolant filters work very well. Easy to see through at a glance, easy to clean and very effective in catching rust particles

    These are available from Restoration Supply.

    Please purchase from these PAS members and Meet advertising supporters.

    Dave

    #413741

    Dave, the Gano is NOT suitable for S80/81 because those cars have a very short upper hose between the inlet of the radiator and the cast neck we’ve been talking about–and that hose length is much too short for a Gano plastic housing, unless they’ve recently developed a real “shorty” version. I just measured the upper radiator hose on my S80 sedan and it is 3.5 inches long INCLUDING the overlaps for clamping on the neck and the radiator inlet. In fact, when installing a new (stiff) upper radiator hose I have to remove the neck from the cylinder head and use that leverage to wrestle the assembly back into place.

    I’m certainly in favor of buying from our advertisers when their product is suitable for the specific application. I use the stockings for all my vehicles, including modern, and find they catch more debris than the Ganos.

    Jack, I suggest that you use the ankle-high stockings (cheap ones are fine–I bought a box of 20 for less than $7 at Walgreens). Install as per Greg’s instruction.

    Nalcool is no more–it is now Pencool. Use Pencool 2000 with NO anti-freeze and Pencool 3000 if you have any amount of anti-freeze in your system. Amazon is the best source I’ve found: I just received a shipment of six 64 oz jugs (half-gallon–most convenient size for me) which cost a bit less than $130. I’m servicing several vehicles, and six jugs will last me about five years. To save you doing math as to dosage, for the initial fill add 1 oz of Pencool per quart of cooling system capacity. A S80/81 has a 26 quart system, so you’ll need 26 oz for the initial fill. I carry a one-gallon jug of water on tour pre-loaded with 4 oz of Pencool. Top off ONLY when hot to avoid overfilling.

    Jack, when you FIRST have the cooling system together, I suggest you run a cooling system cleaner with tap water AND a stocking filter to catch all the stuff that has been loosened but not removed so far. Ed Minnie is a proponent of an EvapoRust product for cleaning cooling systems as you drive; please chime in, Ed. Whenever you’ve run a cleaning chemical through the system, change the stocking because it may have been weakened by the cleaning chemical.

    When I acquire a “new” car, one of my first actions is to assess the cooling system condition and add a stocking filter. After 300 miles or so, drain off enough coolant (you can re-use), and remove and inspect the stocking. How much debris is in the stocking will inform your choice of the next drain-and-clean-the-stocking interval. Rinse out the stocking and reinstall. Especially for little-used cars, repeated heating and cooling cycles will break loose a lot of debris from the block which, without a filter, would be trying to clog your radiator. This is even more critical when you’ve had a radiator recored or professionally cleaned.

    Last month I changed out the radiator hoses on my 1930 roadster (after 10-12 years), and changed the stocking as well. The stocking was intact and had only the tiniest amount of debris, extremely fine particles, which I doubt a Gano would have caught. The top tank of the radiator was sparkling clean. If you’re fortunate enough to not have to top off frequently (my 1930 and 1934 take less than a quart every 700 miles, others need more), add 6 oz of Pencool annually as a replenishment dose.

    I have been running distilled, Pencool, and stocking filters (my climate does not require anti-freeze) for 12-15 years and am delighted with the cleanliness of all cooling systems.

    #413742

    Thanks to everyone. This is all great. Attacking the broken bolts this afternoon, and shoveling out more rust.

    I am so impressed by the level of knowledge acquired by experience among the PAS family. I spent thirty years in editorial and executive management in the book and magazine publishing industry, and I can’t help but think all this collected wisdom could add up to an excellent guidebook for classic car restoration. I’m not the guy to do it but it would really be something if the know-how and experience you all have amassed could be made generally available. I’m just saying, as the saying goes.

    Jack

    #410484

    I am reading that magnesium anodes are better for freshwater than zinc. Anyone agree/disagree? And can I just place it loose in the cooling chamber? Won’t it shift around in there, or doesn’t that matter?

    Jack Davis

    #413743

    Jack: I usually drill a hole in the anode, string a Stainless Steel wire through the hole, twist it tight, then about 8″ or so wire, and make a loop, and twist it tight. Feed the anode down the radiator neck, off to one side, and put the loop of SS wire over the overflow tube. You then can pull it out easily to inspect it.

    I don’t know about using Magnesium. But the Zinc anode DOES work, Mine has a lot of pits and corrosion after one year.

    And a Zinc anode is available from just about any marine supplies store.

    Greg

    #413744

    Jack: For drilling out the water jacket bolts: Make yourself a drilling jig.

    I used a piece of 7/16″ or 1/2″ thick aluminum, about 5-6″ long, and about 1″ or 1-1/4″ wide.

    I drilled a hole to accept an extra-long bolt of the same thread as in the jacket’s flange.

    This hole is drilled through the edge, through the 1″ width of the metal. When a long 1/4-28 bolt is installed and tightened, the aluminum will be standing on edge covering one or more other broken bolt hole bores.

    I then very carefully measured and drilled a guide hole to align the drill bit over the center of the next bolt hole.

    I made one guide with an 1/8″ bore for the drill bit, plus a bit of clearance to reduce friction. This was for the initial pre-drilling of the broken bolt.

    And a second jig or guide with the correct diameter for the tap-drill size for the 1/4-28 threads.

    So an initial small drill to create a pilot-hole for the second drill, the tap-drill, to follow the center of the bolt.

    The steel bolt is harder than the iron block, so if you get off center the drill bit will very quickly wander off into the softer cast iron and destroy the hole.

    The BIG problem with drilling out any broken bolt is to get dead-center in the broken bolt. Which is rarely possible when ‘free-hand’ drilling. With a good jig, it is fairly easy.

    You can get a Time-Sert to use in that 3/8″ hole, and then have the same bolt thread in all the jacket’s bolt locations.

    If you did manage to get a bolt drilled out perfectly on center, you can see the different metals, the steel thread-coil in the cast iron hole bore. Often a metal pick can be used to peel out the thread-coil, and a tap used to chase or clean out the threads afterwards.

    If you do use a tap to push out the old steel thread-coil BEWARE that the old thread coil WILL jamb the tap resulting in a broken tap. So start the tap, and back all the way out, use a pick to break off any bit to the thread coil, then start the tap again. it is slow work, but you DO NOT want to break off a tap in the hole !!

    Greg Long

    #410488

    Great thread!

    #410489

    I have been told not to use distilled water in a cooling system. The theory being that it is so pure that it is “hungry”” and will dissolve more iron. Proponents of this school of thought recommend mineral water in jugs from the supermarket. Supposedly Mercedes-Benz did extensive research on this and supports this idea. Any thoughts?”

    #410491

    Perrier Is what I would recommend…………non pressure, as they say in France.

    #410493

    Michael, DEIONIZED water (often sold at grocery stores) is probably hungry for ions from surrounding materials. DISTILLED water pure, without minerals, and is specified for use in steam irons in CPAP machines (no I don’t use the latter, and the former only rarely in my retirement :-) ).

    Don’t take my word for it–Mr. Google is our friend, sometimes.

    #410495

    A chemist in our laboratory sold me on the idea of using Deionized (DI) water in cooling systems, telling me that it was the most stable. The reasoning being that having had all its ions removed, it was less likely to try and collect ions from the metal of the engine.

    I used it for years in a number of vehicles until I retired.

    That said, I am not a chemist.

    #410498

    When cleaning a Pierce 8 block, I used various lengths & diameters of steel cable inserted in a drill chuck (low rpm), to get into the narrow passages round the valves, etc. Got a tuna can’s worth of rust out. Then filled block with phosphoric acid (installed a temporary water jacket plate), drained & let dry, went back with the drill/cable and got another tuna can’s worth of flakes out.

    #410502

    This is all great, but every answer leads to another question, doesn’t it? Working hard with magnets, light files, scrapers, a teaspoon, and a variety of wire brushes, I have the cooling chamber down to metal everywhere I can get to. Of course there may still be rust flakes around behind the cylinder sheaths where I can;t see or reach. The sock gambit should catch that over time. Meanwhile, I had thought of coating all the surfaces I can see or reach with Rustoleum or a similar product to inhibit new rust. Any thoughts on that?

    Jack Davis

    #410503

    Do not paint the water passages. When the repair is done, and the car is assembled and ready to run, there are a few more thing you can do. I would fill the entire cooling system with evapo-rust. Use it straight without any water, and run it as you coolant for a few months a as long as there is no danger of freezing. It’s the best stuff to remove and break down the rust and rust particles. Go to the AACA website and do a search on it. You can get all the info on it there. Good luck, Ed

    #413750

    I have copper crush washers for the water jacket but the smallest I could get was 3/8″ inside diameter, and the bolts are 1/4″ which leaves some play that might interfere with the washers seating properly I fear. OK to use the original washers that came off with the bolts, and put them between the copper washers and the new stainless bolts? That would apply even pressure when torqued down, and ought to make the copper seat completely. Or am I off base on that?

    Jack Davis

    #410648

    McMaster-Carr has M6 diameter copper sealing washers available (.244 inches ID) which would easily ream up to 1/4, or use M8 which is 5/16 and a bit closer to what you need.

    #410650

    Jack,

    Didn’t you recceive the email I sent you with a source for the AN900-4 crush washers?

    That is the correct size and the company seemed to have them for sale.

    Peter

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